... Eremin & Co, Peru 2005 -
.
March/April 2006
On another subject - choices. Quoting you here:
MT: There is one more question that is on my mind for the last few months. It is a question of the freedom of choice in our lives, in the decisions we make.
IZ: It is on my mind too. However, my strong belief is that we make choices, and what we are is defined at the "bottom line" by the choices that we make. It sounds quite opposite to what you said, but I am not sure that I have understood correctly your definitions [...].
MT: What I come to realize though is that any choice that was ever made could not have been different unless at least some of the circumstances are different. Indeed, if I made some choice in the past, it was based on the environment, my memories, and thinking, which is sort of an inference method based on memories and the environment (which is part of memories anyways). If all the variables were the same why would I ever make a different choice? One may argue that if you think some more, you may make a different choice. But what would make you think "some more"? Only a change in the environment or in the memory, but we assume those to be the same. I'm sure there is a flaw in my reasoning and someone with a basic degree in philosophy will probably point it out to me very quickly. If you can, please do. Otherwise I will remain of an opinion that any choice made, was the only possible choice that could have been made in the circumstances.
IZ: [..] shifting responsibility for your own life to someone else is what I am opposing in the discussing whether there are ANY choices we make, or NONE.
I guess, the confusing words are "the only possible choice"... maybe you meant the only _possible_for_me_ choice or, I'd rather say, best possible for me choice. To me it's a big difference - the only choice or the best for me choice, which sometimes become the same. I strongly believe in fate/karma, whatever you call it in a common language. Each of us is born in a certain country, year, family, with certain personality, and we do not choose starting conditions of our lives. But I feel that the choices we make from the moment when we can make choices later in life makes us what we are as a "personality". Something we do not know what exactly we are choosing when we are taking a certain path, but I do believe, strongly, that YES, there are choices for us to make and what we are is defined by the choices we have made and are making.
This is a good time for me to stop and agree on the definitions for the further conversation. There are so many directions in which this discussion can go from here, that making a good choice is somewhat fun :)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Michael Tselman" <mtselman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: choices
To: "Irina Zaks" <irinaz@yahoo.com>
Irka, [...]
Ya s toboy vo mnogom soglasen. Na samom dele mi s toboy smotrim na raznie storoni odnogo i togo zhe voprosa, tak chto ser'eznogo protivorechiya mezhdu nashimi vzglyadami ya ne nashel. Ya postarayus' napisat' podrobney, no poka prosto ne hotel ostavlyat' tvoe pis'mo "visyaschim v vozduhe".
Vkratce - Ya absolyutno soglasen, chto mi "make choices". I esche bolee soglasen, chto mi "responsible for our choices".
Pri etom, intuitivno ti ochen' pravilno podmetila: 'what we are is defined at the "bottom line" by the choices that we make.'
Imenno tak. Nemnozhko ciklicheskoy zavisimosti, no eto ne strashno. Eto vpolne po vostochnomu. Vsya moya istoriya o "choices" skoree bila na temu bessmislennosti perezhivat' chto mi sdelali tot a ne drugoy choice. Poskol'ku buduchi samimi soboy mi v dannih, konkretnih usloviyah, postupim imenno tak a ne inache. Eto ni skol'ko ne otricaet neobhodimost' "stanovitsya luchshe", razvivat'sya, i t.p. Bolee togo, eto neizbezhno. Dlya mnogih iz nas. A nekotorim eto ne budet dano. T.e. mnogoe zavisit kak ot vneshnih, tak i ot vnutrennih usloviy. Tak zhe kak ne kazhdomu dano stat' Einsteinom ili Bahom, kakie bi vibori oni ne delali. Prosto eto ekstremal'nie sluchai.
Davay voz'mem kak cel' - samorazvitie, ili, skoree, samorealizaciyu. Poslednee ya bi v kakom-to aspekte rassmatrival bi kak "smisl zhizni", hotya eto slovosochetanie mne ne nravitsya.
Vopros togo kakogo urovnya mi mozhem dostich zavisit kak ot vneshnih usloviy, impul'sov i stimulov, tak i ot vnutrennoego sostoyania v kazhdiy danniy moment. Takim obrazom, vibori, kotorie mi budem delat' na etom puti budut podverzheni imenno etim sostavlyayuschim. V kazhdiy danniy moment nashe sostoyanie (kak sostoyanie sistemi s pamyat'yu i nekotorim logicheskim i intuitivnim apparatom) tak zhe kak i sostoyanie vneshnih vvodnih usloviy zafiksirovano i takim obrazom opredelyaet nash vibor. T.e. vibor opredelen ne tol'ko vneshnimi faktorami no i vsem tem "conditioning" chrez kotoroe nashe soznanie proshlo k dannomu momentu. Vot imenno eto ya i starayus' opisat' i kak-to formalizirovat'.
--Misha
IZ: The original quote plays quite differently in the context of the Note and in the context of your e-mail
Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Michael Tselman" <mtselman@yahoo.com>
Privet!
Note 19 perechital. Po moemu ya imenno eto i skazal. Vot ottudda:
"What I come to realize though is that any choice that was ever made could not have been different unless at least some of the circumstances are different. Indeed, if I made some choice in the past, it was based on the environment, my memories, and thinking, which is sort of an inference method based on memories and the environment (which is part of memories anyways). If all the variables were the same why would I ever make a different choice?"
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